<paroneayea> MEETING LOGGING STARTS
<paroneayea> ======================
<paroneayea> hello all!
<paroneayea> http://wiki.mediagoblin.org/Meeting  [11:06]
<paroneayea> before we kick it off, who all is here for the meeting?
<paroneayea> hm  [11:07]
<paroneayea> quiet!
<pythonsnake> Me!
<paroneayea> looks like it might just be us two?
* AVRS reading sometimes
<paroneayea> ah :)
<paroneayea> spaetzBBL: schendje: nyergler: joar: pinging some of the usual
             suspects ;)  [11:08]
<paroneayea> anyway
<AVRS> Elrond?
<paroneayea> elrond told me on PM he's next door
<paroneayea> but had a few things he wanted me to bring up
<paroneayea> so I guess let's go through the items on the agenda!  [11:09]
<paroneayea> * 0.3.3 milestone! What about our next release? :) 
<paroneayea> so my thoughts on this are that we should do another release at
             the end/start of the month  [11:10]
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<paroneayea> we've had a lot of contribution activity lately... I think the
             main things we need to do are:
<paroneayea>  - try to finish merging the rest of the patch backlog
<paroneayea>  - get the new dropdown header looking nice (schendje is on this)
<paroneayea>  -
             http://issues.mediagoblin.org/query?status=assigned&status=new&status=accepted&status=reopened&group=status&milestone=0.3.3
             wrap up as many of these issues as we can
<paroneayea> seems about right? :)  [11:12]
<paroneayea> pythonsnake is also asking about new features... I think we
             should talk about that at the end of the meeting... but re: 0.3.3
             at the moment I'm not sure we want to specifically add new
             features onto the 0.3.3 milestone, but if we manage to get them
             in, great  [11:13]
<pythonsnake> At least fix the actual ones :)  [11:14]
<paroneayea> yes :)
<paroneayea> well, not sure, anything anyone else wants to say on this? :)
<paroneayea> if not, let's move on
<paroneayea> From the wiki:  [11:15]
<paroneayea> * Where to put Developer docs?
<paroneayea>     Our Documentation for developers is currently a bit
             split. Some are on the wiki, some in the main docs. There are
             pros and cons for both. We should consider where to put
             things. One place? Which? Or decide on an individual basis? 
<paroneayea>     Good about main docs: Easy to integrate source code doc
             strings. That way internal api docs can be kept mostly up to
             date. 
<paroneayea>     Good about wiki: Doesn't feel so "set in stone". 
<paroneayea> so, Elrond said more about this over PM, I'm just going to paste
             it in here.
<paroneayea> <Elrond> Okay, I have a small opinion:  I would vaguely vote for
             moving the technical docs back into the tree:
<paroneayea> <Elrond> - Much easier to integrate doc strings from the source
             (which tend to be way more up to date than we are able to keep
             anything else updated)
<paroneayea> <Elrond> - Those people writing technical docs usually do not
             need the goodies of a wiki, they're usually happy with an editor
             and some processing language (sphinx in our case).
<paroneayea> <Elrond> - The technical docs might correlate better with the
             "version at hand", because we can maintain them together in one
             tree.
<paroneayea> I think that what Elrond says above makes sense... keep
             community-ish things on the wiki, but mediagoblin's guts are
             getting more and more clear, so it makes sense to move clear
             documentation to the manual.  What do people think?  [11:16]
<pythonsnake> I approve that.  [11:17]
<paroneayea> okay, well!  it's a quieter meeting than usual, but I guess that
             means that it's easier to get consensus ;)  [11:18]
<AVRS> haha
<pythonsnake> Or did he mean put it in the main docs?
<paroneayea> he means putting it in a section of the main docs, yes
<paroneayea> the technical docs
<paroneayea> we're doing this to some extent already for plugin api stuff
                                                                        [11:19]
<pythonsnake> Yeah, that
<paroneayea> it's really more, "do we want to do this for the rest of
             mediagoblin?"
<paroneayea> now that we've split it into sections
<paroneayea> it seems fairly logical to do so?
<Elrond> Point being: We did the opposite a while back.  [11:20]
<Elrond> ... we moved stuff from the main docs to the wiki.
<paroneayea> right
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<paroneayea> but we also didn't have documentation sections back then
<paroneayea> hey Tumulte !
<paroneayea> welcome to the meeting ;)
<pythonsnake> Also there's not much stuff in the wiki...
<Tumulte> Yeah ! Sorry I'm late, had to rush from the train  [11:21]
<paroneayea> np Tumulte 
<Tumulte> (backlogs  in pm ?)
<paroneayea> alright, well, people seem okay with that idea, so next section!
<paroneayea> Tumulte: I'll PM you
<paroneayea> okay, next one is "wiki spam"  [11:22]
<paroneayea> we have a few options
<paroneayea> we can just leave it as is for now
<paroneayea> we can add a captcha
<pythonsnake> What's wiki spam?
<paroneayea> or we can add a "textcha"
<paroneayea> pythonsnake: every now and then someone spams the wiki:
             http://wiki.mediagoblin.org/index.php?title=Main_Page&oldid=1064
                                                                        [11:23]
<Elrond> pythonsnake - Our wiki get spammed a lot.
<paroneayea> it's really annoying to clean up
<paroneayea> unfortunately, if you have a wiki
<paroneayea> avoiding spam is hard.
<paroneayea> captchas hurt accessibility and are annoying
<pythonsnake> Even if you add captcha/textcha, they can add annoying stuff?
<paroneayea> gnome does a textcha where you type "gnome"  [11:24]
<paroneayea> pythonsnake: spammers can still spam with captcha/textcha, but
             it'll be much reduced probably
<pythonsnake> Maybe add a verification process?
<paroneayea> we already have email verification
<paroneayea> the other problem is our wiki isn't used much as a wiki, though
             it is sometimes  [11:25]
<paroneayea> when it is, it's really valuable
<pythonsnake> As in, some active wiki'er checks if it's good
<paroneayea> pythonsnake: that's a huge job
<Elrond> That's the next option: Verifying accounts by humans.
<paroneayea> requests for user creation happen a *lot*
<Elrond> Like "Ask Elrond to activate your account".
<paroneayea> http://wiki.mediagoblin.org/Special:RecentChanges  [11:26]
<paroneayea> yes that one's an option
<paroneayea> I actually would *like* if we had a combo captcha/textcha or
             verification option
<paroneayea> not you have to do both
<paroneayea> but you can do either
<pythonsnake> Elrond: or
<pythonsnake> wiki page verification
<paroneayea> "fill out thiss captcha to verify yourself, or alternately, email
             X@Y.org to get activated"
<paroneayea> pythonsnake: verifying every wiki page is such a high barrier you
             might as well not have a wiki  [11:27]
<pythonsnake> The thing is that even if you verify their account, they will
              still be able to put junk in it
<Elrond> ... or ask on irc. ;)
<paroneayea> the point of the wiki is to empower people to make flexible,
             community contributions quickly
<Elrond> pythonsnake - But lots less spam.
<paroneayea> right, IRC also.
<Elrond> Right.
<AVRS> pythonsnake: IIRC, Libregamewiki was sometimes spammed tens of times a
       day when it was unmaintained
<Elrond> I don't think, we want page verification.
<Elrond> The idea is to give community members the power to share something
         quickly and easily.  [11:28]
<AVRS> pythonsnake: but it had no captcha practical at the time
<AVRS> pythonsnake: (some spammer solved it)
<AVRS> So just verifying is not enough.  [11:29]
<pythonsnake> Yeah, there's captcha bypassers out there
<paroneayea> sure
<Elrond> human verification is harder to bypass. ;)
<paroneayea> there are some, thouggh I think it will reduce it by a wide
             margin
<Elrond> Right.  [11:30]
<paroneayea> note: we do currently have the goblinarmy group
<paroneayea> you can't make new pages without being in it
<paroneayea> so that's pseudo-curation
<pythonsnake> But what would be the requirements to get in?  [11:31]
<pythonsnake> If you do human verification?
<AVRS> Would verification which doesn't need to be quick work?  That is, just
       not publishing changes before they are verified.
<AVRS> Then you won't need to haste with blocking or deleting.
<paroneayea> again, that feels like "why have a wiki" at that point  [11:32]
<Elrond> Right.
<AVRS> Good edits follow a pattern too.
<paroneayea> here's a question
<paroneayea> whould anyone object to setting up a live.gnome.org style
             textcha?
<paroneayea> something not perfect
<paroneayea> but they have "type gnome into the box"
<paroneayea> I mean, really how much would it hurt to see how it works out at
             this point
<paroneayea> to try it
<Elrond> +1  [11:33]
<AVRS> It's better than nothing and not worse than a traditional captcha.
<AVRS> (at usability)
<Elrond> It's better than a traditional captcha, because it's accessible.
<AVRS> (supposedly)
<AVRS> Yes.
<pythonsnake> paroneayea: gnome?  [11:34]
<pythonsnake> How is that a textcha?
<paroneayea> http://issues.mediagoblin.org/ticket/628
<paroneayea> pythonsnake: textcha is like
<Elrond> So, yes, let's try that. I guess, it'll help for a year, until
         spammers find out the answer and automate it. (that's what happened
         to my forum.)
<paroneayea> Type "gnome" into this box [gnome__________] [submit]
<paroneayea> where the above shows someone having typed something into the
             text bosx  [11:35]
<AVRS> Libregamewiki's textcha was an arithmetic expression.
<Elrond> AVRS - Yeah, my forum's too.
<pythonsnake> Yeah, arithmetic expression is better than type gnome.
<paroneayea> arithmetic is also easy to solve for computers if you *really*
             want to get by it :)
<paroneayea> computers are good at math ;)
<AVRS> pythonsnake: but they were solved
<paroneayea> this isn't supposed to be a perfect solution, just to reduce it
<pythonsnake> Or something like, 'How many feet do an elephant normally have?'
                                                                        [11:36]
<Elrond> Type the name of mediagoblin's mascott: [____________] [submit]
<Elrond> ;)
<paroneayea> I feel like we can talk about this forever... want to move onto
             the next issue now that the issue is filed above?
<gmgbot`> *NEWS* issues: Ticket #628 (Add textcha to wiki) created
<paroneayea> "Designing features!" is on the wiki but schendje is not here,
             and it seems strange to converse that iwthout him around  [11:37]
<paroneayea> are people okay with postponing that till next meeting?
<Elrond> Yep.
<pythonsnake> Yes
<paroneayea> cool.  deferred!
<paroneayea> next one... plugins plans!  [11:38]
<paroneayea> Tumulte and I have talked about this a lot
<paroneayea> I sent a huge email to the list
             http://lists.mediagoblin.org/pipermail/devel/2013-February/000426.html
             but I doubt anyone got around to reading it :)
<paroneayea> I think maybe one thing is that this should be my "hacking" focus
             on the days that I'm doing hacking for the next while
<paroneayea> do people generally agree?  [11:39]
<Elrond> Yeah.  [11:40]
<pythonsnake> Yes
<AVRS> Is there a standard for issue keywords?
<Elrond> You might want to allocate 10% for federation, because we really want
         to get a few little stepe forward.
<AVRS> Or at least keywords used in multiple projects.  [11:41]
<AVRS> (ok, that's not for a meeting)
<paroneayea> Elrond: my main thought on that was to start that immediately
             after at least the main plugin "plans" are forward
<pythonsnake> AVRS: lol
<paroneayea> both require a lot of implmeentation and research
<paroneayea> and it'll be hard to do both at once
<paroneayea> and there's an immediate need to sort out plugins
<Elrond> AVRS - Not really. we started to use "sql", and "needs-review". But
         others aren't standard. We might want to use our wiki to document
         some standard ones.
<AVRS> Elrond: here's what Mozilla uses:
       https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/describekeywords.cgi  [11:42]
<Elrond> paroneayea - Okay!
<paroneayea> Elrond: I definitely want to get to it super soon :)
<paroneayea> AVRS: very interesting  [11:43]
* Tumulte is reading some stuffs he doens't necessarelly agree with, but he
  missed the proper time to interfer
<paroneayea> Tumulte: re: plugins?  [11:44]
<AVRS> kde: https://bugs.kde.org/describekeywords.cgi
<paroneayea> we can continue to discuss on the mailing list?
<paroneayea> or on IRC
<Tumulte> paroneayea: dropdown menu... doc
<paroneayea> oh
<paroneayea> yeah let's talk about that after the meeting if you have concerns
<AVRS> gnome: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/describekeywords.cgi
<AVRS> ok
<paroneayea> we only have ~ 15 minus left
<Tumulte> crap  [11:45]
<Tumulte> late = quiet
<Tumulte> move on
<paroneayea> well, anything more to say on plugins?  or is it hard to because
             I just DOS'ed the topic with a huge email that nobody's read yet
             ;)  [11:46]
<AVRS> I've read it in November ;)
<Tumulte> paroneayea -> wiki spam unobtusive JS verification helps a lot
<paroneayea> AVRS: are you a time traveler?!
<AVRS> oh wait
<AVRS> I thought it was about the feature design e-mail
<paroneayea> no about
             http://lists.mediagoblin.org/pipermail/devel/2013-February/000426.html
<paroneayea> Tumulte: I think that might hurt accessibility & noscript users
                                                                        [11:47]
<pythonsnake> Tumulte: how
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<paroneayea> anyway
<paroneayea> Tumulte: maybe you should read that plugin email I dumped
<paroneayea> and then we can talk after you have
<paroneayea> and I can break into Real Tickets tagged "pluginapi" ?  [11:48]
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<pythonsnake> wiki spam -> community reporting and edits throttling too
<paroneayea> pythonsnake: we don't have much of a community *doing* things on
             the wiki is part of the problem  [11:50]
<AVRS> create a link-adding right
<paroneayea> AVRS: ah  [11:51]
<AVRS> except for talk pages
<pythonsnake> how about some blacklist
<pythonsnake> like for IP and keyworks
<pythonsnake> keywords*
<paroneayea> pythonsnake: we have IP blacklists
<paroneayea> anyway, nobody's objected to my plugins suggestion of
             ticketifying / us talking on here and on the mailing list more
             later, so we can move on probably from plugins?
<paroneayea> though we didn't really discuss it :)
<paroneayea> two more things  to discuss
<AVRS> random people need to add links mostly only to "Live instances"  [11:52]
<paroneayea> AVRS: that's true
<AVRS> "Campaign sightings" didn't have that, maybe account creation was not
       available
<pythonsnake> http://akismet.com/
<AVRS> paroneayea: ok, the two things  [11:53]
<paroneayea> right
<paroneayea> so:
<paroneayea> * Chris Webber gives updates on how he's settling into his role
             ;) 
<paroneayea> so!  I'm settling into my role :)  As you all know I was at
             FOSDEM, otherwise I've been *trying* to have a 3 days a week
             hacking, 2 days a week on review, 1 day a week on admin tasks, 1
             day personal thing
<paroneayea> I'll be resuming that more next week.
<paroneayea> this week was kind of more whatever was in front of me  [11:54]
<paroneayea> not sure there's much more to say.  Ther rewards are all either
             shipped here for us to ship out, or are currently shipping here,
             so the campaign is coming close to wrapping up :)
<paroneayea> unless anything has anything else to say, let's quickly move onto
             the last topic
<paroneayea> pythonsnake wanted to talk about new features  [11:55]
<paroneayea> pythonsnake: want to elaborate specifically?
<Tumulte> paroneayea: just still think that unobstrusive JS with captcha fall
          back for no scritp and human validatation for accessibility is fine
<Tumulte> cause it's 90+% of users  [11:56]
<paroneayea> Tumulte: right, though that's several things to set up... anyway,
             let's stay on topic, we're almost out of time
<Tumulte> yes
<pythonsnake> Yeah, Tumulte and I have been talking about missing things that
              are very important like Collection Management
<Tumulte> indeed
<pythonsnake> accessibility should be improved
<Tumulte> pythonsnake: should I show my QnD mock up?  [11:57]
<pythonsnake> Tumulte: sure
<AVRS> currently collection UI is all over the site
<pythonsnake> There's a lot of things you have to do manually with mg
<AVRS> There is a stray "add collection" in the dropdown
<Tumulte>
          http://ruga.me/public.php?service=files&t=513586f8d74a9a5433f5b76a0bb3d965
<pythonsnake> like adding to collection etc.
<pythonsnake> IMO these stuff should have a higher priority than plugins
                                                                        [11:58]
<AVRS> Tumulte: I hope colors and lines would make it clearer what a selection
       means and how important it is  [11:59]
<Tumulte> You should get rid of the drop down menu BTW... But I'd rather make
          a useability suggestions doc for next meeting
<AVRS> Tumulte: so that you don't move or miss accidentally
<paroneayea> we spent a lot of time discussing what lead to the dropdown, and
             it just landed
<paroneayea> I think tossing it away immediately is unlikely 
<Tumulte> AVRS: made it in 15 minutes yesterday, it's nothing but a proof of
          concept
<paroneayea> it needs a lot more polish
<paroneayea> but I think the fundamentals are good
<AVRS> Tumulte: ok.  Anki has a problem with "Options groups" for decks
<paroneayea> you're right about things like collection UI is problematic
<paroneayea> filing bugs for the issues that don't exist yet, doing mockups,
             and doing implementation are the way to go forward on these
             things :)  [12:00]
<pythonsnake> Tumulte: a bit redundant though :p  [12:01]
<AVRS> Tumulte: of course, you can't break that in GMG with that mockup ;)
<paroneayea> Tumulte: I don't see your mockup
<paroneayea> I just clicked the link
<paroneayea> ?
<AVRS> (it is easy to see what media are in a collection, and what collections
       a media is in)  [12:02]
<pythonsnake> paroneayea: deleted
<paroneayea> ah
<Tumulte> indeed !
<Tumulte>
          http://ruga.me/public.php?service=files&t=580d000345ac08977cabf3859f723052
<pythonsnake> AVRS: loop in the db?
<paroneayea> Tumulte: hm!  That's a really interesting UI mockup
<Tumulte> AVRS: I think I'd be way better (if the general concept is ok with
          you) if I do a real static demo
<paroneayea> Tumulte: It'd be interesting to see you talk about this with
             schendje   [12:03]
<Tumulte> how it clicks, how it feels etc...
<paroneayea> however, one question
<paroneayea> how do you avoid it showing way too much?
<pythonsnake> Tumulte: I think it should be more MG-like
<Tumulte> we should have a js+css+html sketchin platform
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<paroneayea> hm  [12:04]
<Tumulte> paroneayea: sorry ? whet do you mean ?
<AVRS> Oh, the "All" filter is unlimited...
<paroneayea> it's a cool looking mockup... I dunno how it would work out using
             it, since mediagoblin allows you to add collections with anyone's
             stuff
<paroneayea> seems like it could be tricky
<Tumulte> paroneayea: I often forgot this... good point  [12:05]
<AVRS> You shouldn't need to create a collection with absolutely
       everything. But there could be a view to choose what to exclude.
<Tumulte> god point
<Tumulte> no... good's enough
<paroneayea> anyway
<paroneayea> I do agree that we need a conversation about how collections
             really should work
<pythonsnake> Tumulte: the problem is more how to implement that in MG ;)
<Tumulte> paroneayea: is it all medias in one MG instance or do you plan a
          multi MG super pod like diaspora ?
<paroneayea> Tumulte: the latter.  [12:06]
<Tumulte> (I should know that
<Tumulte> )
<paroneayea> anyway, we should really have a conversation about how collection
             design *should* work
<Tumulte> paroneayea: Keep that in mind, will find a way
<paroneayea> but!
<paroneayea> we're at the end of the meeting :)
<paroneayea> good meeting, all!
<paroneayea> it picked up a bit in :)
<paroneayea> I'm going to get lunch.  have a good one, all!  [12:07]
<paroneayea> MEETING LOGGING ENDS!
<paroneayea> =====================
